notes on a and e

[Guesswho_Chick]

Trying to figure out why this is...if I don't, it's going to get extremely annoying. :) Just started playing violin a few months ago, so needless to say, I am not necessarily hitting what you would call, um, perfect notes yet. :D I'll use my eletronic tuner sometimes to tell when I'm on...and on the D and G strings I am much more accurate hitting a note correctly then on the A and E strings. Can anyone explain this???

[OkieLovinNC]

I understand what you mean. I use an electric tuner too, but it's usually the opposite for me. My G and D strings are always all funky. Maybe, just maybe, on the A and E, since they're a higher pitch, it takes more to get those in tune. At least that's the way on the clarinet. :) Two different instruments. Matt, any insider-info on this?

[LuckyGurl2001]

Yeah, I get what you're saying too. I'm not sure if I have that problem anymore, but I did when I first started. Now I think I can hit the notes on the A and E strings easier. (I've been playing for a little over a year.) Well, maybe not the E string...anything that requires using my 4th finger is usually WAY outta tune. Although, my teacher gave me a song this past Tuesday with a really, really high E in it (like 3 E's above middle C on the piano) as a harmonic sorta thing, and I can hit that easier than I can the C that's right below it. [shock] I don't get it...

[Guesswho_Chick]

*sighs in relief* Okay, so at least I know I'm not alone in this! Yeah Okie - I was wondering if it was just harder to get the higher strings in tune...I mean, my E string seems to just flip out sometimes, much more than the others...Lucky - glad to know you pretty much got over it, and that high E note prob - geeez that stuff can freak you out! lol, music can be sooo fickle...

[mandofocus]

Ok -
I'm not a fiddler, but I am a musician. Geez I thought someone would have explained this by now. A is a perfect 5th above E. So when you get the E completely in tune, your tuner will pick up this harmonic.

[matt the fiddler]

the reason i didn't answer before is because this is a hard one to explain .. and i didn't have time.... again i really think people need a private teacher... this is one example of somethign that amature player of 10-50 years that is a good teacher would diagnose and label and help you learn hoe to play differently... there are 100's af areas like this.. however, this one makes my big 15 list of technical posture areas that a student needs to master....


what i think is the question is why is it harder to play in tune on the a and the e .

a couple quick things. it is ok to use a tuner.. but ONLY for just a little bit. using your eyes instead of your ears will train you muscles to move in tune by sight, which the brain processes easier aynways in most people/ the whole point of what is effective is using your ears to tell you if you are right or wrong. instead of a dial or blinking lights.. play the notes against an open strign and listen if it sounds right.. or get a drone note [DB-88 is a great metranome and a drone note thing] adn play slow scales against that. or play a piece slowly against that..


that said. g and d seem easier.. e and a seem harder. if one is playign with the most ideal positin this really should not be a problem. [ i am talking about peopel under 5 years of playing] once you play for 8-15 years of normal devolpment levels tuning becomes an issue again - but for completly different reasons.

where i find the cause of this is [ and i woudl say in 90% of the peopel i run into] is that you are pivoting the LH string changed from the wrist. .. IE. hodl your L arm in playing position.. and wave your wrist. [this is very similiar to a common method to move the fingers so they can reach different strings] however that pivot point will nto work for good tuning [even thought it is possible] it is over 10 times harder...

if you look at the angle your finger follow. it is a line drawn from you shoulder gogin out in front of you. this line of movement is NOT perpendicular to the strings. therefore as you bend your wrist in more [like the g amd d strings] the fingers are closer than the more extended position of the e and a strigns. that is why you have to place the fingers higher on the a an e strings.. to compensate for the angle you wrist created... it seems likethey fall at a higher pitch. because to play in tune.. your finger need to strech more..


the solution.. is easy.. but hard to fully incorperate.. and you really need to eork witha teacher on this one...


hodl your arm up again.. in playign position
- pivot at your shoulder ONLY so your elbow swings back and forth.. and make the motion small ebough so he fingers are about where the strings would be.. [this will reqire bringing your should in to probably as far as it can strech .. if you are an average person flexibility wise..... this sets up the angle.. so instead of your fingers learning 4 positions for each string .. they need one .. but works for all strings. simply .. if playing on the g string you shoulder needs to be underneath. and a and e extended out . practice scales and pieces and tunes slowly LISTENING. but watching . and changing the angle each time the string changes..

if you notice the motion here goes parallels the mositon of the bow in a string change. both arms shoudl act connected. and both arms need to adjust at the SHOULDER for a string change..



makes sense?


you need to [even if you hate listening to classical music] watch the great classical players in videos, live, etc. and watch how they do things. what you shoudl be aiming at most of the time is what the majority of the great players do. there is a reason they are great you know.. certin things work.. the goal is to think about posture as little as possible to get the max results. and when certian things are masterd. you literally move 10 times faster in other areas.. [in this case tonation]

matt

oh, and i hope you guys know i jsut type fast to get stuff done here.. and don't proofread.. that is too close to school if thigns are gramatically correct.... i really do know how to spell and type .

lol

[LuckyGurl2001]

Ahh, now that makes a lot of sense! Thanks Matt - I'm sure that's probably exactly my problem!! And I don't even have a tuner...I just have a pitch pipe thingy that I only used for tuning. Plus, a little sliding mute thingy that kinda makes my fiddle not so loud. Which is a good thing I think cause my fiddle is a pretty loud fiddle.

[Guesswho_Chick]

ah! finally just had time to read that response...busy weekend...

anyways...

thanks very much Matt! I just got my left arm into playing position and realized I definately pivot at the wrist...only worked with my teacher a few lessons on the violin *before he switched his focus for me back to the guitar...had been hoping to do violin one week, guitar the next....* he never really mentioned how I should be holding my left arm much...just focused on the bowing...so that would probably be why I'm doing this...

do try and not use the tuner often...only when i'm actually tuning the strings...or when I'm really curious if I'm getting it right, or if I'm completely unfamilar with the song...although I haven't done that last one much recently - started working with my brother's mandolin book instead of my teacher's violin sheets he gave, and since I had already worked with that book on the mando I was familar with the sound I was trying to get...at least as far as the basic melody...just started on a fiddling book though...

my bro's got a drone metronome stuck somewhere in his room...need to steal that for awhile...playing without a tuner is the whole thing I liked about the violin - forced me to start trusting my ear...hearing and feeling the music much more than just thinking which fret I was on...extremely helpful to me in general...

really REALLY hoping I'll be able to find a violin teacher after I move, but it's a very small area and I'm not sure who'se going to be there...have to do some hunting...if I can't find one - can you recommend any websites or books that are especially good at at least bringing this kind of stuff up???

[Guesswho_Chick]

and...was playing violin for a few hours today...and this shoulder thing helped SO much...much much better tone, lot easier to hit the notes *on all four strings*, and - for the few minutes where I REALLY had everything in the right position - even made vibrato seem more likely...just really relaxed my whole arm...and now I finally know why the concert violinists I love watching cuz they look like they're going CRAZY are doing - not just getting into it, but moving correctly like this. Ah...very very helpful...

although now...my arm and back are absolutely exhausted...but, it's a good thing, right??? :D

[AgentJade]

As another resident violinist....

I will definitely reiterate that relying on an electric tuner is a bad idea. For one thing, they're not completely accurate...they seem like they would be, but they're really not...

Just remember, like Matt said, to watch your hand position etc....and remember not to close your wrist or anything (i.e. the palm of your hand should not be against the neck of the violin, it should be very open with lots of room inbetween). Bad hand positioning is a big culprit for bad intonation.

Also, besides the hand thing...just because of the physics of things, the frequencies of the notes as you get higher get higher, and the notes are closer together than they are on the lower strings....once you get more experience under your belt, you'll notice that in higher positions your hand needs to space itself differently.

So just keep in mind that a half step (or a whole step) on the G string is a bit bigger than that of a half step (or whole step) on the E string.

[Guesswho_Chick]

I will definitely reiterate that relying on an electric tuner is a bad idea. For one thing, they're not completely accurate...they seem like they would be, but they're really not...

eek! thanks...wasn't aware of that...


Also, besides the hand thing...just because of the physics of things, the frequencies of the notes as you get higher get higher, and the notes are closer together than they are on the lower strings....once you get more experience under your belt, you'll notice that in higher positions your hand needs to space itself differently.

So just keep in mind that a half step (or a whole step) on the G string is a bit bigger than that of a half step (or whole step) on the E string.

Thanks much for explaining that! Makes quite a bit of sense! I couldn't figure out why the spaces were slightly different on my E and A strings, but this explains it then! I was a little afraid there was a prob with my violin...

[AgentJade]

No problem, I hope that helps you out.

[torque-monster]

One comment that I can add as a singer and non-fiddle player that might be of some use is the idea of natural relative pitch.

Very few people are pitch perfect in the sense that if you asked them to sing a note they could hit it bang-on 100% of the time. equally very few people when played a note could tell you what it is and get it right 100% of the time. Therefore when presented with a score most singers could not sing the piece perfectly in pitch no matter how well they read music.

Most people can however determine relative pitch, that is to say that if played a note they can determine intervals and have a general sense of whether or not they are in tune. That's why if you listen to say a cathedral choir (where the singers are professionals) before a piece is sung the opening chord is played softly on the organ. The experienced singer can then determine at what pitch the opening chord or note is sung and the hard part is not going sharp or more often, flat.

The reason that most singers tend towards going flat (especially altos and basses) is that your ear picks up the vibrations of your voice as you speak or sing and what you hear of yourself is very different from what others hear. Try listening to yourself on a tape recording, you will see what I mean. The voice is naturally pitched (mine is naturally pitched an octave below middle C) and the notes immediately surrounding that note are relatively easy to find. As you progress up the octave it becomes harder because the sound you hear is modified slightly from the actual pitch you are singing. I have difficulty distinguishing between E#, F, F#, and G when I sing, but have no problem distinguishing between them when I hear them played on a piano. Most singers have the same problem, but with different notes, and with practice they learn where their muscles should be to support the particular notes and when you begin to trust the body's support mechanisms you become less reliant on what you hear and more reliant on what you feel.

With a violin (or fiddle), the sound-board is placed on the body (on the shoulder and under the chin) and so your brain perceives 2 tonal messages, the one the ear hears, and the one the body feels through the vibration of the soundboard which travels through the chin and up the shoulder. What you hear as a result may be slightly modified from the sound that the instrument is actually producing. I would suggest it might be worth taping yourself playing scales and testing this out. If your tonal perception is naturally skewed towards the notes around those of your natural speaking voice (as is quite normal) then it may become harder to hear (through the body's own aural feedback processes) the true note, which is why it might be more difficult to distinguish some notes from others and thus play in tune.

I would suggest that a possible answer would be to try a technique as Matt suggested (and individual tuition is immensly valuable with all instruments, the voice included) that can be modified by a teacher that hears the sound that the instrument produces rather than the modified one that you will hear. The teacher can then correct the technique to master the physical process of producing the correct note, and the skill then becomes autonomous (i.e. committed to the long-term memory and reproduced as a schema, or series of physical motions that do not need conscious thought), and like the experienced singer, you become reliant on the fell of where the note is rather than on the modified sound you hear.

[matt the fiddler]

slight off topic..
not too far..

hey torque i jsut got to meet alasidar last week and spend some time with him.... what a master to see him work.. he is one of the artists that uses pitch as an expression.. some times plays out of tune on purpose jsut like the use of dynamics or rhythm.




------
pitch is all relative.. there are a LOT of different scale systems [well temepered tuning is what most people play though]
so playing out of tune is a form of expression. but you first have to be able to play in tune for that to work....


or take claude williams [94 years old, gave lessons to charlie parker. was lester youngs roomate] who plays out of tune... but it dosn't matter..... it is just so beautiful

matt

[Guesswho_Chick]

nice to know about pitch being used as expression, and still being listenable. Lately I've been playing around trying some free jazz styles on my guitar, and have found it fairly liberating and REALLY enjoyable, but have NO idea how anyone could play along or who would want to listen...but good for myself...anyways though - tone as expression has been on my mind a lot lately. I just learned to play the short Nick Drake guitar instrumental Horn *from the album Pink Moon - THANK YOU TEYES for recommending that!!!*, and while it didn't move me much while listening to it, playing it was totally different. The notes are extremely sparse, but I loved hitting them and just letting them go. It almost sounds like the piece was written soley to show off the tonal capabilities of a guitar, which was really nice for me, after having heard recently about fretted instruments not being able to produce pure tone (or at least correct intervals). Even if it's not pure - I'm sure I can't quite tell - I found it really nice to play and listen to myself do. So, knowing pitch can be listenable, is really encouraging, thinking maybe tone as expression itself could be, too...

Torque - think I'll be sending you a pm soon with some questions about sining that you're insight brought up....so be ready. :) But - I find what you brought up extremely intriguing - with violin, for instance *I'm sure the advice you brought up can apply to playing anything. Just kind of get off easy with a fretted instrument -usually playing guitar myself- and so automatically assume if I'm hitting the fourth fret I'm hitting the right note, which isn't true, kind of a safety trap, not good* I find I play a lot better when I'm playing along with somebody, or with a cd...I love hitting a note so well along with a cd I can't even hear myself...the other main time I like the way I sound on the violin is when I'm playing something from memory or by ear, but that may be because I'm hearing the right notes, but not hitting it. urg. So I will definately start recording myself - good idea...should be doing it anyway...a guitar teacher before gave some adive to record yourself playing the same song like once a week, so you can see your improvement even if you don't notice it, and stay encouraged...so it's a good thing to implement anyway...Plus John Moore saying to hear yourself as part of the audience...think that's along your line of reason...And I didn't even THINK of feeling one note, hearing another, and actually hitting another all at the same time. Geez. This'll be tough to figure out, but fun! And they say musicians are lazy! ha!!