Nickle Creek and Faith?

[Stevendean]

From certain song lyrics and some of the things that I have read in the diary/journal sections, as well as some comments made at various live shows I get the feeling that the band members are or may be Christians. Does anyone have information on this??

When I saw them at the HOB in hollywood in 2003 they closed the evening with a beautiful rendition of Be thou my vision, a very well known hymn.

Just curious as to what any of you think or know, or think you know!


Cheers

Steven

[chickzilla]

ooh, Steven, i hate to do this to you so early on, as you seem like an intelligent poster... but there are SEVERAL threads on this topic that i can refer you to, because they are mostly still active in the last few days. we're having some very extensive discussions on this in a couple of places and trying to avoid the risk of having to personally repeat myself, i will find them for you, so you can read our thoughts there. if i take a second to get them that is.

this thread (http://www.nickelcreek.info/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4935)
and
this one (http://www.nickelcreek.info/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4935)

i think have the most of our recent discussion on the topic included in them.

[Stevendean]

Never feel bad about pointing me in the right direction. Just as you don't want to repeat yourself, I don't want to search all over the place for a past conversation just to avoid repeating it.
Sooo, if you can lead me to a current discussion on a topic, I appreciate it. However, neither of your links seem to be what I am looking for, but thanks, and I will also look deeper.

Off to the beach I go.........
Steven

[somewherenorth]

try this -

CMT interview (http://www.cmt.com/artists/news/1478066/09102003/creek_nickel.jhtml)

i think it's under question #18...

hope that's what you're looking for... :)

[chickzilla]

oh its ok that none of my stuff was what you were looking for, i was just trying to find anything in hopes it might encompass it.
this board has expanded so quickly recently, it is hard to keep up with things. if i really want a conversation now, i use pms.

[Jimmie]

Originally posted by Stevendean
From certain song lyrics and some of the things that I have read in the diary/journal sections, as well as some comments made at various live shows I get the feeling that the band members are or may be Christians. Does anyone have information on this??
As chickzilla said, this topic has been VERY widely discussed on this board, so do some keyword searches and I'm sure you'll find plenty.

But I can offer this much of an answer. When I was backstage before their concert in Kent here, they all drew together in prayer before they took the stage. I believe that this is their common practice - a prayer before each performance.

[elbereth]

Originally posted by Jimmie

they all drew together in prayer before they took the stage. I believe that this is their common practice - a prayer before each performance.

That is so cool !

[Stevendean]

I too think that this is a great thing. I too believe that they really mean it, that they are genuine. However, drawing together to pray prior to a show is a far cry from demonstrating genuine faith, or true Christianity.

Believe me people, I get a very strong vibe that they are Christian people, and that their lives probably reflect it, but it is not proof.

I have seen many secular bands, sports legends, politicians, etc... say a word of prayer, but their lives do not demonstrate the qualities that Jesus possessed or said we should.

Steven

[sixpenceguy]

Read the lyrics to Doubting Thomas on WSTFD and The Believer on Chris Thile's solo album Deceiver. You'll find a young man's honest and open dialogue about his Christian faith in a post-Christian world...the young man being Chris Thile.

The combination of my having just read Blue Like Jazz by Donal Miller and listening to WSTFD and Deceiver has really awakened my passion for my faith lately and a yearning for more authenticity in my ministry (I'm a youth minister).

Greg

[Jimmie]

Originally posted by Stevendean
....drawing together to pray prior to a show is a far cry from demonstrating genuine faith, or true Christianity.

I have seen many secular bands, sports legends, politicians, etc... say a word of prayer, but their lives do not demonstrate the qualities that Jesus possessed or said we should.
The difference is that you've seen it. The examples you're talking about are public displays of prayer, put on as show for the audience.

Nickel Creek's prayer takes place backstage, and is not in any way a public event. Perhaps I shouldn't even have shared this information - it's a private moment, and I just happened to be there at the time.

Frankly, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me whether Nickel Creek are christians or wiccans. But it seems to be important to others here, so I thought I'd pass along the information.

Some christians seem to be so deep into their faith that they wind up out of touch with the world in which they live. I'm glad that Nickel Creek don't suffer from that malady.

[chickzilla]

Originally posted by Jimmie
Some christians seem to be so deep into their faith that they wind up out of touch with the world in which they live. I'm glad that Nickel Creek don't suffer from that malady.
i wouldn't say suffer Jimmie, though i know exactly what you mean, but that could open a whole new can of worms.

[Adyn]

Originally posted by Jimmie
Perhaps I shouldn't even have shared this information - it's a private moment, and I just happened to be there at the time.

For what it's worth, they also show the bands pre-show prayer on Bluegrass Journey. So I'd not worry about disclosing private matters... though it sure is nice to hear from someone who has courtesy and tact to be concerned :)

Originally posted by Jimmie
Frankly, it doesn't make a bit of difference to me whether Nickel Creek are christians or wiccans. But it seems to be important to others here, so I thought I'd pass along the information.

And a big AMEN to that hehe.

[Jimmie]

Originally posted by chickzilla
i wouldn't say suffer Jimmie, though i know exactly what you mean, but that could open a whole new can of worms.
Well, my point is that they are worldly individuals who are struggling with real issues of faith, not dogma. Certainly there are times when that comes through in their music, but they're not being preachy with us, they're not waving their beliefs about like cheerleaders at a pep rally.

The new Dar Williams album opens with a song called Teens For God that's about a kind of false religion that seems to draw in a lot of teenagers. She pokes fun at it - pointing out how they all reject drugs and sex, only to reverse themselves four years later when they get to college.

I'd like to think that Nickel Creek haven't fallen into either side of that trap, but I really don't know for sure.

[chickzilla]

i love Dar Williams!! you totally picked the right reference there my friend! i am awaiting that album with expectant glittery Christmas present eyes. :) though i have not heard much about it, that little tidbit there was more than i knew before. i need to research further.
back on topic, i knew exactly what you meant. they're not burdened with the need to be preachy, or the need to run away from their beliefs and hide them. wherever they are at any point in their faith they handle it expertly and express it with that flair for genius they always have. even the doubting stage.

[ChrisT_rox]

Originally posted by sixpenceguy
Read the lyrics to Doubting Thomas on WSTFD and The Believer on Chris Thile's solo album Deceiver. You'll find a young man's honest and open dialogue about his Christian faith in a post-Christian world...the young man being Chris Thile.

The combination of my having just read Blue Like Jazz by Donal Miller and listening to WSTFD and Deceiver has really awakened my passion for my faith lately and a yearning for more authenticity in my ministry (I'm a youth minister).

Greg

I'm reading that book right now. Very unique writing style. It's very easy to read and understand but also has some good profound thoughts.

[Jimmie]

Originally posted by chickzilla
i love Dar Williams!! you totally picked the right reference there my friend! i am awaiting that album with expectant glittery Christmas present eyes. :) though i have not heard much about it, that little tidbit there was more than i knew before. i need to research further.

I've listened to it a couple of times through now, and so far I don't think I like it as well as the last one. It has a lush sound, maybe a bit overproduced. There are lots of duets - she sings a Neil Young song with Marshall Crenshaw and a Pink Floyd song with Ani DiFranco. There's also a song where she's backed up by a group called Soullive. It's pretty far removed from The Honesty Room <g>.

I played a couple of songs from it on my show this past Saturday (the Neil Young song Everybody Knows This Is Nowhere and the album's closer The Hudson. (You can listen to the archive here: WRUW archive (http://wruw.org/guide/stream.php?stream=87) ).

The new Dar CD will be out on September 13.

[indytrum]

So I've been a NC fan for years now, I have most of their cd's and have been to a few concerts. I personally am a Christian and have been led to believe for all this time that the artists of NC are Christians too. I love the song Doubting Thomas because it reflects the struggle of wanting to believe but being scared to, and everything associated with the doubt.

But there are other lyrics I have mainly heard from Chris that have been, well a little disturbing. A few songs in particular (from Chris' album Deciever as well) have pointed to sleeping around, cheating on girls, moving in premaritally, etc... I just feel like their lyrics have made a turn for worse- they're no longer innocent love stories or folk tales. Although they're terribly strong and sarcastic, very real and from every day life, I guess it's dissapointing because that sort of innocense has left them. Sure, that comes with growing up and maturing, I know that.

I don't expect a good response from this, forum friends. I expect a let them say what they want response, but I just had to communicate! Peace out.

[PrincessNic]

We have another thread started about this. It is a highly talked about topic.

Go here for more info!

http://www.nickelcreek.info/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5128

[iamalighthouse]

i know exactly what you're talking about. when i heard deciever, i was shocked by some of the lyrics. I am a Christian too, and, while Chris's lyrics don't really offend me or anything, I find it odd that a fellow Christian would write such things. I guess they fit the moods of his songs and all but.......well I agree with you. This, however, does not keep me from listening to that SPECTACULAR music, whatever the lyric content.

[robertnavy]

I would say we can't be judging people by the lyrics to songs if they are Christians that would be between them and God. They should no what is right and wrong. And i sure it helps to sell the albums

[robertnavy]

I say that True Faith is shown by works as stated in the bible and not by lyrics to songs, and no one is perfect i hope they are christians who are trying to further the word of God and maybe doin it in non-traditional way.

[honortheking]

amen!!

[elbereth]

I think that as a Christian growing up in the church, you are taught to think a certain way. I believe that needs to be challenged, not just for the thrill of rebellion, but to discover the genuine truth. The truth that hasen't been discolored by religion or tradition, the truth of a real vivid intimate realtionship with Jesus Christ. That truth is rarely presented purely, at chruch.
I think that is what Chris(and the rest of NC) is doing. He is not conforming to the churchy, but realy testing the water to see how deep it truly goes.
He also is expressing what he realy feels, or maybe even how other people, he sees, feel about the chruch.
Just some thoughts

[NJlowe]

I just finished reading Sean's thoughts
(journal)-8/31...

Nancy

[mylords_servant]

Allright, my answer to the original question. They (NC) say they are. But there are lots of performers who claim to be Christians and yet they have no idea what that really means. They may pray and talk about God but its what is in their heart that matters. And I'm not claiming to know what is in their hearts, I'm just saying that simply because someone says they are a Christian that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. However being a Christian should leak out into everything you do including music. That doesn’t mean that every conversation you hold needs to have Jesus’ name in it but it should and will effect your life. When you are a Christian it brings such a change in your life you can’t help but let it effect your life. Christ calls us as Christians to be holy. We have to be set apart. You can’t just blend in with the crowd. I was so disappointed when I bought the new CD. The music is great but lyrically…there is something lacking. I know life is hard, there will be trials and storms, but their music held no hope. It felt so dark. I have also been a creekster for years, I have worn out many, many packs of batteries and one CD player with their music. I was so excited when they had a new CD coming out but I donno, I was just disappointed with it. I know this will make a lot of ppl angry, I’m sorry you disagree. However that’s my two cents.

[hamiltonmill]

mylords_servant,

I think I understand where you're coming from. Most pop music out there drones on and on over the same tired themes--love, love lost, sex, betrayal and rejection. There's not a cent of it that hasn't been spent a thousand times over. Sadly, for an astounding number of people, life is nothing more than a series of these repeating themes. What you hope to find from a band made up of Christians is a rare reflection of the hope that is Christ. I long for that too, and I'm drawn to artists who fill that prescription.

I think at first glance you get the feeling that this is just another pop album saying the same things that all pop albums say. Helena is very well written and performed, but bitter in it's message. Somebody More Like You is a great song, but then there it is; that bitter feeling of rejection accompanied by a sour wish for comeuppance. And, She Can't Complain is just plain sad in its message...no hope at all that I can see. These are, unfortunately, songs about real life, real people, real feelings and experiences that most connect with on some level. Any Christian subtext is so well camouflaged that you almost doubt its existence.

As a whole package though, the CD does something very subtle, and somewhat profound, I believe. I think Doubting Thomas is the key. The CD as a whole communicates to people who are trying to find their way. It speaks to people who are soul searching, making mistakes and struggling to make sense out of their lives. Doubting Thomas is that person who has made those mistakes, longs for something more and decides to have faith in spite of the persistent feelings of fear and emptiness.

In that sense, Why Should the Fire Die is not designed to speak as clearly to those who know who they are in their faith, but rather to those who do not. The work is not evangelical, but it does establish a empathetical rapport with soul searchers. It says, yeah life's tough; I know what you mean. It then suggests, though Doubting Thomas, that there is an alternative, a glimmer of hope even, but a tough leap of faith is required.

This approach allows them access to the otherwise inaccessible, and possibly will influence some, who might not otherwise, to consider that alternative. In a sense, this means they have sought first to understand before trying to be understood. I frankly don't know if any of this is by any conscious design on the band's part, but I do believe that God works in and through His people to accomplish His purposes. Perhaps this is God's sovereign hand at work. Perhaps it's the only way some people will consider His alternative to their troubled lives.

Keith

[PrincessNic]

One song other than Doubting Thomas that I really took to was the title track, Why Should the Fire Die. It seems both songs are about struggling with your faith in something. They say you have to love your spouse like you would God and both kinds of love are a choice. And to make that choice you have to have faith and that is very hard...especially in a marriage.

I know from the backstory what WSTFD is really about. The end of Chris's marriage, but it really means something different to me. It is about the way relationships really are. They are hard and complex. It is about being there for each other and not being selfish and sticking it out to the end. This is a song about trying to make a relationship work even when it is impossible. Even if it is rough, you are together. Like the line said I'm just happier being confused, beside the fire, as long as it's with you.

So it sounds like from the song that even when times are tough you have to have faith that it will work out.

[dmb_junkeee]

Originally posted by hamiltonmill
mylords_servant,

I think at first glance you get the feeling that this is just another pop album saying the same things that all pop albums say. Helena is very well written and performed, but bitter in it's message. Somebody More Like You is a great song, but then there it is; that bitter feeling of rejection accompanied by a sour wish for comeuppance. And, She Can't Complain is just plain sad in its message...no hope at all that I can see. These are, unfortunately, songs about real life, real people, real feelings and experiences that most connect with on some level. Any Christian subtext is so well camouflaged that you almost doubt its existence.

As a whole package though, the CD does something very subtle, and somewhat profound, I believe. I think Doubting Thomas is the key. The CD as a whole communicates to people who are trying to find their way. It speaks to people who are soul searching, making mistakes and struggling to make sense out of their lives. Doubting Thomas is that person who has made those mistakes, longs for something more and decides to have faith in spite of the persistent feelings of fear and emptiness.

In that sense, Why Should the Fire Die is not designed to speak as clearly to those who know who they are in their faith, but rather to those who do not. The work is not evangelical, but it does establish a empathetical rapport with soul searchers. It says, yeah life's tough; I know what you mean. It then suggests, though Doubting Thomas, that there is an alternative, a glimmer of hope even, but a tough leap of faith is required.

This approach allows them access to the otherwise inaccessible, and possibly will influence some, who might not otherwise, to consider that alternative. In a sense, this means they have sought first to understand before trying to be understood. I frankly don't know if any of this is by any conscious design on the band's part, but I do believe that God works in and through His people to accomplish His purposes. Perhaps this is God's sovereign hand at work. Perhaps it's the only way some people will consider His alternative to their troubled lives.

Keith

Just wondering if it occured to anyone that maybe NC are believers, but aren't really attempting anything related to their faith with their music? I mean, I am a believer and it influences everything I do, but that doesn't mean that everything I do has the goal in mind of getting a specific message out. I am a musician, and i have played mostly with other believers, but only because they have been my friends. I would gladly play music with someone that was not a professing believer if I liked the music. SOOOOOOOO just maybe they are just writing music- and yes, their music is influenced by their faith, but they aren't trying to further a message with it, they are just writing music that reflects their lives and everyone's lives.

See, the thing about muscians is that in a lot of cases they say what everyone else is afraid to say and talk about. i'm sure everyone on this board has had some relationship in their life that was somewhat inappropriate (on some level, whether emotionally or otherwise). The great thing about good writers is their capacity to articulate and dramatize issues in order to make them more relavant or simply just to make a more interesting lyric. Saying that certain songs have no hope in their message doesn't mean that any of NC doesn't believe there is hope. It does, possibly, mean that they are writing about a situation that has lost hope - and let's be real, that happens.

I think we as believers can want entertainers so badly to be believers that we get our hopes up and then get crushed at the first sign of 'wavering' (if you will). Life can suck horribly, even for us almighty believers, and again, i think NC and other talented writers can articulate that beautifully....and for some reason, that disappoints you.

so, my suggestion would be to not judge their possible level of faith by a situation in a song that seems wrong to you. i am not saying that everything is relative and 'it may seem wrong to you.....' right is right and wrong is wrong, but just because they write about something that is 'wrong' doesn't mean that Chris is sleeping around.

let us be thankful for the beautiful music that they make. it's nice to have some talent to fill our heads with, eh?

toodles

[thebiglargeness]

Originally posted by sixpenceguy
The combination of my having just read Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller

i love that book

Originally posted by sixpenceguy
(I'm a youth minister).

me too

[artsy_jfi]

i have read about the many disappointed fans due to disturbing lyrics on the new album. disturbing is the word that chris himself used, especially in regards to can't complain, but i don't understand why people feel that might question their faith because of them. life holds so much hardship and that is what makes the grace of God so amazing. without acknowledging where we as humans come from, i don't think one can truly appreciate where we are now, within the merciful hands of God. also, not all of their songs are biographical...no need to assume that all the bad things in the songs are things they are personally doing. can't complain is actually written about someone that chris knew...not about himself personally.

so are they christian? that is the question and i think the answer is an easy yes. The fact is, whether they put a blatant christina message in a song or not does not keep thos views from peeking out of the seams. their honesty, the fact that they are so kind and accomodating to their fans, and so many other things serve as a testimony to who they are. dont trap them in the box of their songs because that is not all of who they are. yes, they are musicians, but they are also people who have more dimensions than that.

[ncwfh]

....IMHO
Artists can be christians but true artists put their art first before anything. for the most part, christian rock etc is just another marketing channel which a pseudo artist may take in order to earn a living at doing something they like to do. The kind of talent exuding from these three artists does not allow for any kind of filter to be placed upon it so as to be politically or socially acceptable. I also think, part of their genuine faith comes from the genre they grew up in - roots, americana, bluegrass all stem from singing in church and gospel song, etc - so it would make perfect sense that it would be a part of them. but if you are looking to shape them into something you want them to be I think you got your work cut out for you -

[thebiglargeness]

^
the above post is a rare example of absolute truth on the internet

[Red Zep]

^ I agree

[4nOnThisSide]

Originally posted by Red Zep
^ I agree
I'll third my agreement. Also, I really like the falling snow and snowman at the top of the board. :) I really miss the snow now that I'm in SoCal.

[buttermuffin4]

Originally posted by ncwfh
....IMHO
Artists can be christians but true artists put their art first before anything. I disagree with that statement.
Let's say an artist's mother is on her death bed and they had a show the same night, anyone would have to be incredibly heartless and cruel to put a show before their dying mother.

A true artist is willing to sacrifice.

[iamalighthouse]

I will disagree too. True Christians put their faith before ANYTHING, including their music. I know that Sara, Sean, and Chris are Christians. I don't know the depth of their faith because I don't know them, but they seem like they are on the right track. Sara autographed a pic for me and wrote 'God Bless' on it. Little things like that show where an artist's first devotion is.
<><

[buttermuffin4]

That statement I agree with ^.

[Pulpfree21]

Ah, but many people say Gob bless, I think its one of those things that ticks me off. Like when the Rappers get up and except thier grammy award for whatever and the first words out of their mouth is I would like to thank God for this opportunity... what crap. The reason that I think they are of faith is that they are some of the most talented and gifted musicians yet they never boast about it they are never higher than their fans. They also have an extremely clean record for musicians, IE they arent really into the whole sex drugs rock and roll thing that alot of musicians fall into. They obviously struggle with fait and God, you can see it in their lyrics and comments about God or religion, but I believe that they have a love for christ and God, and they are extremely blessed by Him

[artsy_jfi]

Originally posted by Pulpfree21
Ah, but many people say Gob bless, I think its one of those things that ticks me off. Like when the Rappers get up and except thier grammy award for whatever and the first words out of their mouth is I would like to thank God for this opportunity... what crap. The reason that I think they are of faith is that they are some of the most talented and gifted musicians yet they never boast about it they are never higher than their fans. They also have an extremely clean record for musicians, IE they arent really into the whole sex drugs rock and roll thing that alot of musicians fall into. They obviously struggle with fait and God, you can see it in their lyrics and comments about God or religion, but I believe that they have a love for christ and God, and they are extremely blessed by Him

i am loving this post. now that is what i am talking about....totally agree...especially with the lyrics depicting struggles like that...they possess an honesty that many seem to lack....it isnt about saying God bless or I thank God for this...those are just words....it is about the spirit that is behind it. nickel creek has a rare quality: humbleness and i agree that with this the blessings God has given them are evident.

[iamalighthouse]

^ I agree with that. They use their talent in a great way.
<><

[thebiglargeness]

Originally posted by artsy_jfi
the blessings God has given them are evident.

yup ive always said that chris's mandolin skills were either of god, or he sold his soul to the devil (and i doubt its that one)

[buttermuffin4]

lol^.

Yeah, I agree with those statements.

[iamalighthouse]

^^Haha

[OrnotMajestic]

Or, we can all just relax and know that whatever their belief and faith, it isn't up to us to discern or know. If anyone on this board can truly judge the level of NC's faith (or lack of) by lyrics and 'someone-once-told-my-friend-that-old-me that-they-overheard-that-this-was-true-about them'....then this is merely pointless self-absorbed gossip so that anal-retentive fans have something more to complain about. (Or, if you possess this ability, perhaps you walked on water to your computer, hrm?) If their level of spirituality is THAT important to whether or not you listen to them (because why else would you care....for craps and giggles? Boredom?), then ask them yourself after a concert. If you aren't willing to do that, and find it too personal, then maybe you should reconsider your interest, as it may be (as stated above by moi) *gasp* self-absorbed gossip.

[Red Zep]

^ I agree. Who freakin cares. They play the best music in the world and thats what we should be concerned with.

[iamalighthouse]

It's not that I wouldn't listen to them if they weren't Christian. I just respect them more as people because they are. I have plenty of friends that aren't Christians, but I don't look up to them as role models in my faith. Am I making sense?....probably not.......And I did speak to Sara about her faith and the story of the Hand Song, one of my favorites.
<><

[buttermuffin4]

What did she say?

[iamalighthouse]

She basically said that the Hand Song was such a song of faith and that God had really blessed her. I don't really remember some of what she said because it was a couple years ago and I don't want to misquote her.
<><

[Pulpfree21]

yeah, I look up to nickel creek more than any other musicians because the are christian and are pretty open about it. I dont think we should gossip about it, but discuss how we feel about it. I think the problem is that people get way to defensive when they are offended.... so just CHILL OUT!!!!

[honortheking]

theres just something so much sweeter about music and art in general when i know that someone knows WHY and WHO they do it for.

i can't stand it when artists and such say things like this is for the fans blah blah blah. fans are good. you know, i guess we give them money and whatnot.

but my God owns the cattle on over a thousand hills. HE is what everything should be for.

when i know that someone is a Christian, and by definitition that means they are saturated in Christ's love, broken, molded, and are being renewed daily in His word, it brings such a sweetness to the music. and like the previous statement, there is more of a respect for them. because they know where everything comes from, who it's for, and so on.

artists who aren't believers are... well.. self-absorbed. all they care about are record sales, making the right business move when it comes to their music, getting chicks, and maybe the music which in the case of a non-believer, to me, is just empty noise.

if you've been given a gift by God, it's His...give it back. our lives are not our own. our talents... we're just to be good stewards of them. to bless others with them and sacrifice them up to God. that's why He blesses us all differently.

anyway, i feel like i've run my mouth. that may be pearls to swine and perhaps a bit harsh. but Truth is never sexy - Derek Webb.

[thebiglargeness]

that was beautiful man

[buttermuffin4]

Aye, ::sniff:: that says it all!

[matt the fiddler]

Originally posted by honortheking

artists who aren't believers are... well.. self-absorbed. all they care about are record sales, making the right business move when it comes to their music, getting chicks, and maybe the music which in the case of a non-believer, to me, is just empty noise.



Some good observations similar to 1st Corint 13. but.. counter point/ alternative thought to think on.. [not picking apart nor disapproving what you are saying, but pointing out some slippery ground that does exist near your comments in what I have observed through my life, and seen as trends in several of my friends attitudes.



Would you only truly appreciate a cook's food, the house you live in that a homebuilder made, or even the streets you drive on that are laid by the Government if they are Christians? [I am sure you adore some type food like Oreos or Slim Jims that you don't know the makers life] Faith does indeed gives value to all things, but often times I find the arts, and especially music held out to a much stricter and less fair set of criteria in terms of what in the world but not of it means. I know many people who will only listen to music that is by Christians. I think there is much value in self moderating one's input from the trash out there, but there is a difference between being a true separist like the Amish [which most sincere Christians would disagree with the effectiveness of their choices] or being firm to what you believe, in the midst of this world- giving fairness to all. Plus if you look at music as being a language to the heart- what better way than to get to know people you disagree with than through a language that they use to express deep things? [look at Act 17:28]- where Paul finds great value in one of the most widely known secular poets of the day.

So, appreciate on a deeper level a musician or businessman who backs their work with faith? [even if it is not christain music] Indeed!

But, don't unfairly underestimate the current value IE not only to physical needs/ well-being -like a house or food helps you] but also to spiritual realms- of those who are not in the faith. Be aware of where you disagre, and know your lines not to cross for rubbage input! But, I think it does more damage to both relating to and creating genuine relationships with the creaters and listeners of music that is not of faith. It is also damaging to ones who what these type of relationships, and the church which is represented when statemetns of faith are made- when Fairness is not given to all areas.

I could go on for hours about this :)

peace,
matt

[Pulpfree21]

wise words, I always struggle with this issue. The idea of seperating myself from worldly ways and being a light for non believers....

eventually you have to go into the darkness to help others. this is what most people deny or are afraid to admitt.

I love you input, its obvious many people on this thread are pretty deep thinkers... I like that

[thebiglargeness]

Originally posted by Pulpfree21
eventually you have to go into the darkness to help others.

i agree in a way, allow me to elaborate

in the case on the new nickel creek record, for example, being darker than their previous work, or thile's use of cursing in on ice (another topic i have seen talked about alot on here) i believe that if these songs or words express how you truly feel than God is ok with it because you are being truthful with your emotions. Jesus himself asked God to let the whole crucifixion not take place if there was another way: a case of a perfect man with emotions that were conflicting with his normal veiws and yet he was truthful in the fact that he (also being a man) didnt want to have to undergo that pain and anguish


im not sure if i made my point clearly enough, did it make sense to yall?

[Red Zep]

Originally posted by honortheking

artists who aren't believers are... well.. self-absorbed. all they care about are record sales, making the right business move when it comes to their music, getting chicks, and maybe the music which in the case of a non-believer, to me, is just empty noise.


You have got to be kidding me. I rarely call people out, because we all have our own opinions, but there, sir, you are wrong.

[buttermuffin4]

Originally posted by Red Zep


You have got to be kidding me. I rarely call people out, because we all have our own opinions, but there, sir, you are wrong. Well, he did say 'to me', it is his opinion.

[LevellerRich]

Originally posted by hamiltonmill

In that sense, Why Should the Fire Die is not designed to speak as clearly to those who know who they are in their faith, but rather to those who do not. The work is not evangelical, but it does establish a empathetical rapport with soul searchers. It says, yeah life's tough; I know what you mean. It then suggests, though Doubting Thomas, that there is an alternative, a glimmer of hope even, but a tough leap of faith is required.

This approach allows them access to the otherwise inaccessible, and possibly will influence some, who might not otherwise, to consider that alternative. In a sense, this means they have sought first to understand before trying to be understood. I frankly don't know if any of this is by any conscious design on the band's part, but I do believe that God works in and through His people to accomplish His purposes. Perhaps this is God's sovereign hand at work. Perhaps it's the only way some people will consider His alternative to their troubled lives.

Keith
As a severely backslidden Christian, what Keith has written here is absolutely spot on. I fully understand a lot of where the lyrics on WSTFD? are coming from. Songs like Doubting Thomas are making me ask questions of myself.

I personally hate most Christian music, and have never really seen NC as primarily a Christian band - they just make good music that I like. Of course lyrics are massively important, and NC have always written good ones too, with or without being overtly Christian.

As far as I'm concerned, WSTFD? is their best album to date.

[iamalighthouse]

Originally posted by honortheking
theres just something so much sweeter about music and art in general when i know that someone knows WHY and WHO they do it for.

i can't stand it when artists and such say things like this is for the fans blah blah blah. fans are good. you know, i guess we give them money and whatnot.

but my God owns the cattle on over a thousand hills. HE is what everything should be for.

when i know that someone is a Christian, and by definitition that means they are saturated in Christ's love, broken, molded, and are being renewed daily in His word, it brings such a sweetness to the music. and like the previous statement, there is more of a respect for them. because they know where everything comes from, who it's for, and so on.

artists who aren't believers are... well.. self-absorbed. all they care about are record sales, making the right business move when it comes to their music, getting chicks, and maybe the music which in the case of a non-believer, to me, is just empty noise.

if you've been given a gift by God, it's His...give it back. our lives are not our own. our talents... we're just to be good stewards of them. to bless others with them and sacrifice them up to God. that's why He blesses us all differently.

anyway, i feel like i've run my mouth. that may be pearls to swine and perhaps a bit harsh. but Truth is never sexy - Derek Webb.

A FELLOW DEREK WEBB FAN! His faith amazes me.
the truth is never sexy, so it's not an easy sell.

I agree with everything you said. God gives people gifts so that they can use them to glorify Him.
<><

[honortheking]

thank you!! =-]

Red Zep, i also appreciate your elaborating your response. very nice (sarcasm). don't just blurt out things lest you have some sort of foundation.

and Matt, i never meant to sound like i don't listen and appreciate non-believers' music.

i am DEFINITELY not one of those christian music only people. i WAS at one point, but realized how silly that is. because, like you pointed out, if you're going to censor what you listen to, then the Television shows you watch should be JUST as censored. or the food you eat, so on and so forth.

my main thing is just that everything is BETTER when it's done for the honor and worship of the Lord. things are good, and i recognize when God has gifted someone in a certain artform (albeit food, construction, music, visual art, books, etc.).

so... don't think i don't greatly like and appreciate things like Fight Club, Amelie, the percussionist of Marilyn Manson ( i really love the percussions in Beautiful People , they're so cool), or other things by those who don't give credit to Whom credit is way passed due.

i try my hardest to not be close-minded. i hope that helped those of you who had something against what i first said.

i love you guys, i love this band, i love music, and it's all because of Christ.

[iamalighthouse]

^again I agree with all of that. Well said. God bless.
<><

[Pulpfree21]

this is off topic but what if there was a chaplin for movie stars, or bands, that would tour with the band and just make sure that they are getting fed spiritually... haha what a silly idea

[sixpenceguy]

Christians and art. The debate about a Christian's art and what that art should communicate has been a centuries long debate.

Is it possible for a Christian to be going through a rough time in their life (say, a divorce) and gravitate to darker, more introspective lyrics? I believe so. Should that art be shared? Yes!

Often, Christians are criticized for sugar coating life in their art. Just listen to your local Christian radio station for an hour. Sure, the music and lyrics will be probably be sunny and uplifting, and that is needed, but isn't there a place in Christian art to explore the rest of the human condition?

I believe you have to take Why Should The Fire Die? as a whole, and you start with the title. Throughout the album, we hear stories of dysfunctional relationships , but we also hear spiritually probing songs like When In Rome and Doubting Thomas.

The message is clear. Life isn't perfect. There is pain and dysfunction. But, we must keep the fire, our passion, alive.

The closing song has a message of hope, but it's not sugar. It's more bittersweet. The final line, I'll be alright. Isn't that the point? The Christian whose life isn't bittersweet has a very narrow worldview.

Jesus promised us that we will have trouble in this world. We will be faced with situations that will challenge our faith and our morals. What we must never do is stop fighting. I see this album as a rallying cry for people of my generation who are struggling as we try to figure out marriage, friendships, jobs, kids and live in general.

We will make mistakes. We will hurt others and be hurt in return. But we must never stop pursuing our passion for each other, for God. Why Should The Fire Die?, and Deceiver for that matter, inspire me more at this point in my life than most albums marketed to Christians I've listened to lately.

Greg

[OrnotMajestic]

^^ (don't feel like quoting)

Probably the most reasonable post I've seen in this thread so far from that point of view. Finally, someone who understands.

[thebiglargeness]

Originally posted by sixpenceguy
Christians and art. The debate about a Christian's art and what that art should communicate has been a centuries long debate.

Is it possible for a Christian to be going through a rough time in their life (say, a divorce) and gravitate to darker, more introspective lyrics? I believe so. Should that art be shared? Yes!

Often, Christians are criticized for sugar coating life in their art. Just listen to your local Christian radio station for an hour. Sure, the music and lyrics will be probably be sunny and uplifting, and that is needed, but isn't there a place in Christian art to explore the rest of the human condition?

I believe you have to take Why Should The Fire Die? as a whole, and you start with the title. Throughout the album, we hear stories of dysfunctional relationships , but we also hear spiritually probing songs like When In Rome and Doubting Thomas.

The message is clear. Life isn't perfect. There is pain and dysfunction. But, we must keep the fire, our passion, alive.

The closing song has a message of hope, but it's not sugar. It's more bittersweet. The final line, I'll be alright. Isn't that the point? The Christian whose life isn't bittersweet has a very narrow worldview.

Jesus promised us that we will have trouble in this world. We will be faced with situations that will challenge our faith and our morals. What we must never do is stop fighting. I see this album as a rallying cry for people of my generation who are struggling as we try to figure out marriage, friendships, jobs, kids and live in general.

We will make mistakes. We will hurt others and be hurt in return. But we must never stop pursuing our passion for each other, for God. Why Should The Fire Die?, and Deceiver for that matter, inspire me more at this point in my life than most albums marketed to Christians I've listened to lately.

Greg


*claps*

dead on man

[Buggliboo]

sixpenceguy - Thank you. I've been lurking on this thread...started several comments but never finished. Your post is what I wanted to say, but could not compose adequately. Thank you.

[matt the fiddler]

and Matt, i never meant to sound like i don't listen and appreciate non-believers' music.

I know you didn't, :) I was just expressing some frustrations in some of my friends and trends i see in general..


six- there is a reason i only like a few bands that come out of CCM.. I find the ones I like go dark and honest quickly.. IE JARS much afraid etc.

[iamalighthouse]

Originally posted by sixpenceguy

Often, Christians are criticized for sugar coating life in their art. Just listen to your local Christian radio station for an hour. Sure, the music and lyrics will be probably be sunny and uplifting, and that is needed, but isn't there a place in Christian art to explore the rest of the human condition?



I agree with you. I HATE Christian songs that are basically like I love God....and everything is beautiful and perfect because I LOVE GOD! . CRAP! The Christian music industry has SERIOUS issues. The groups that influence my faith the most are Nickel Creek and Lifehouse, both of which DON'T go under a Christian label.
<><

[mychang]

interesting criticisms of this Christian music industry ...

remember that much of Christian music falls under the worship category, and isn't meant to be commentary on living the faith.

there's no reason to hate sugar-coated Christian music. to me, a big part of being a Christian is the joy of this relationship with God. is there struggle? certainly. but often, there's definitely lots of sugar in it. doesn't have to be bittersweet either.

i listen to a lot of Christian radio, not because it's that great musically or anything, but it's just something positive and easy to listen to when i'm tired of playing musical elitest. there are more artists than you think that write songs about Christian struggles. mainstream Christian music has its place.

apologies for rambling

[iamalighthouse]

^I just wanted to tell you that I am a Christian and I do realize your point. Sorry if I just dissed all Christian music. I'm not like that, but I don't respect some of it as much as other.
<><

[matt the fiddler]

lighthouse, mychang .. like sean said in his journal check out the hyms of old.. come thou fount which has been one of my favs for a long time. another good example .. it is well

[Pulpfree21]

I like worship music because in a worship setting it allows you to connect to God on a very intimate and passionate level. But I think that recording that expirence and selling it or fabricating that in the studio is somewhat of a misrepresentation or even a minipulation, which may be a little to extreme. I dont like the pigeon whole that christian music gets put into, because alot of mainstream christian artist sound a like... but all in all if it changes peoples lives, if it makes people rethink their own faith, then there is good comming out of it...so I can't complain

[mychang]

but all in all if it changes peoples lives, if it makes people rethink their own faith, then there is good comming out of it...so I can't complain

aha, that's what i was trying to say, maybe

i've read sean's journal and understand the spirit of his criticism, but i can't agree with it

not everyone can be an NC fan, or find darker or more challenging Christian-perspective music appealing

pop music is popular for a reason; it is what appeals to a vast segment of the population. to me, this is the role of the Christian music industry; it does mimick the pop music industry, but carries a positive message that could be appealing to many people. if that helps in their relationship with God, it is not a bad thing.

[Red Zep]

NO NO NO popular music is popular because they tell you it is popular. It is all fed through the same medium. If one radio station plays it, another is going to play it.

There are some people out there who don't know what they like... so they like what other people like. Its pretty sad.

EDIT: Also take into account that a lot of popular music is marketed to kids. Mommy mommy buy this!

[Pulpfree21]

In my opinion, since I am a musician, I would not want to be considered a christian musician, more a musician who happens to be christian... I dont want to be sucked into one type of writing style... get what I am saying.

I agree with that. People only know whats popular by what they are fed through media... I mean lets face it people in a vast generalization are pretty dense...

[buttermuffin4]

Originally posted by iamalighthouse
I agree with you. I HATE Christian songs that are basically like I love God....and everything is beautiful and perfect because I LOVE GOD! . CRAP! The Christian music industry has SERIOUS issues. The groups that influence my faith the most are Nickel Creek and Lifehouse, both of which DON'T go under a Christian label.
<>< I feel the same way.

[iamalighthouse]

What's popular, at least in the last few years, has been mostly crap. I wish Christian music would be more popular, but I like the kind that speaks of the struggles as well as the good things. But spreading the word of God is all that matters, so however it's done is good with me.
<><

[PrincessNic]

You like what you like. That is the greatest thing about liking something. You dont' have to defend it. You just like it. That's it.

Popular or not...if you like it then good for you. If not, that's fine too. Some of my most favorite songs have been popular.

Granted, they overplay those songs and then I can't stand them but that is another discussion.

And who is to say what is crap and what isn't. If you like it, then it is not crap to you. It may be alittle silly, but if you like it then you like it. Everyone has different tastes. That is why there are 31 flavors of ice cream...

Sorry, I didn't exactly mean to go off on that...

[iamalighthouse]

^Good thoughts.

I would totally go into the overplayed song discussion with you...haha.
<><

[ModernElegance]

I have been looming over this thread, and there have been some strong opinions stated for and against them having faith in Christ.

For me, if you're a Christian, and let's say you're a teacher. To make you a Christian teacher do you have to talk about Christ all of the time while you're doing your job? No, if you did, you wouldn't probably have a job unless you taught in a seminary.

These guys perhaps are Christians and their jobs are as musical artists, do they have to sing about the love, grace, and forgiveness that has been given to them in part of Christ to make them a Christian? By all means no! Ha! I think that this past CD has reflected my life and what I have been going through, as a Christian very well. If you have this idea that the Christian life is a bunch of blessings and you're on a cruise ship, you need to study what the Bible says about the Christian life. Because the Christian life is not easy at all! That's a misconception and false teaching that has been spread around. Will Christ be there for you yes, but it may not be easy. Things will work out for good, but going through them may not be easy (Rom. 8:28).

Anyways...so get back to my point....I do think however that their life, if they are Christians should show that they have been saved from their sin and from hell and are glorifying God through their job. Not that they should speak publically about it at all moments, but that you can tell a difference between them and the world. I know that Sara is currently reading C.S. Lewis, and Sean (as said before) loves hymns, so perhaps. We won't know until they tell us up front, but also by their lives. If they are reflecting Christ in the things that they do, since that's what we're working for ultimately. lol

Ok, I'll stop rambling now lol. (I hope that I made sense!!)

[thebiglargeness]

Originally posted by ModernElegance
Ok, I'll stop rambling now lol. (I hope that I made sense!!)

it did, it did, well said

all i know about it that in an interveiw a few years ago chris said they were all christians

[ModernElegance]

Yeah, I think that someone said earlier though that everyone's definition of Christian is different. So that's why I added that you have to look at their life as well see if they're reflecting Christ.
Some think that being a good person and going to church on Easter and Christmas makes you a Christian, even though the Bible doesn't teach that at all, and yet so many people believe that if they're a good person that they'll go to heaven. There is no such thing as a good person lol. We can do good things, but we're not good at all.

[iamalighthouse]

Originally posted by ModernElegance
There is no such thing as a good person lol. We can do good things, but we're not good at all.

So true. We are bad people. Yes, even you (to whoever reads this thinking no I'm not!)
<><

[ModernElegance]

Yes, even you (to whoever reads this thinking no I'm not!)
LOL!! We know you're out there! :p

[southernyankee]

Chris has said that a lot of his songs are not biographical, but are made up stories. Maybe they are just his observances of the real world-the world is made up of people who have premarital sex, lying, cheating, etc. I don't think they are painting these things in a good light, either-I mean listen to Best of Luck -that song would make me not want to cheat.

I really do believe they are believers by their actions. Sure,a lot of musicians say they are believers, but then they sleep around, get drunk, love money, etc But, Sara, Chris, and Sean seem to have stayed pretty grounded and do not live lives that reflect such behavior. They are very open about talking about thier faith. In fact, I had a great conversation with Sean once about it. They are always making mentions in their blogs. I think they are unashamed but not in your face-which is a good balance.

Remember too, nobody is perfect.

[Lighthouse579]

The person that posted the CMT link:
CLICK HERE (http://http://www.cmt.com/artists/news/1478066/09102003/creek_nickel.jhtml)
hit the nail on the head. It was question #18.

I think it's awesome what they said. They are all Christians, but they are not a Christian band. That way if people just hear that its a Christian band, they won't even bother listening.

I hear many things in their music that kinda gives it away. 'The Believer' on Chris' Deceiver album is awesome. The Hand Song is great. Many others to list as well.

[greengirl_79]

I often find myself coming back to this thread. I think it's an interesting topic.

A youth pastor I used to know said somthing has stuck with me. He was talking to those of us who are not in the ministry. He said, You guys are so lucky. You have the opportunity to get close to non-believers and witness to them in ways that a pastor can't. You can minister just by your actions and words. It usually doesn't work that way for me as a pastor. A lot of non-believers are wary of me and others in the ministry because they expect us to be preachy and to be judging their actions. But you guys can witness at work and at school just by letting God guide your words and actions.

I used to think that people who didn't go aroung proclaiming their Christianity were being chickens, but now I firmly believe some of the most powerful evangalists are not preachers or missionaries, but the people who are just going about their jobs and their everyday lives and following God's lead.

I'm rambling. What I mean is we should never be ashamed to declare our faith, but it is VERY possible to demonstrate our faith even when we aren't wearing a big lable that says, I AM A CHRISTIAN. I think this is true for us as individuals, as well as for artists in the public eye.

[chickzilla]

i agree. and i think one of the best things i have heard Sean do, is be openly frustrated with mainstream store bought Christianity. he has said it several times in his journal entries, his songs, everything. and i think that is important for the rest of the world to see that even CHRISTIANS want something more than just what we're offered to accept blindly.
even when he just talks about how churches shy away from some of the older hymns in the book that refer to the struggle of faith in a major way, he is showing that some people just can't accept things, that even the Christians who are supposed to be perfect sometimes can't go without a fight because we are also human. i respect him immensely for his ability to admit his frustrations.
Chris does it too, but he is an out spoken person in general so i never expected anything less, but its the quiet nature of Sean's choices that impress me. because i am loud and outspoken too.
i think i have ever personally only gotten one person to come to God. i am not sure it stuck, i have not seen her in a long time, but she said that when her life hit a very black spot, and she had nothing to look forward to, she tried to think of someone who had a better life, and what was the difference between her and that person. that person was me, and the difference was that i went to church. so she went, and found God there to comfort her. so just my actions and my satisfaction with my life were enough for her.
wow, this got long.

[Lighthouse579]

I still think I would love NC's music even if they weren't Christians, but after saying that you gotta think that their music would not be what it is if they weren't Christians. I listen to their music a little bit differently now, really paying attention to the words(and thats hard if your as a big a mandolin fan as i am).

[Dodgeromance]

Originally posted by sixpenceguy
Christians and art. The debate about a Christian's art and what that art should communicate has been a centuries long debate.

Is it possible for a Christian to be going through a rough time in their life (say, a divorce) and gravitate to darker, more introspective lyrics? I believe so. Should that art be shared? Yes!

Often, Christians are criticized for sugar coating life in their art. Just listen to your local Christian radio station for an hour. Sure, the music and lyrics will be probably be sunny and uplifting, and that is needed, but isn't there a place in Christian art to explore the rest of the human condition?

I believe you have to take Why Should The Fire Die? as a whole, and you start with the title. Throughout the album, we hear stories of dysfunctional relationships , but we also hear spiritually probing songs like When In Rome and Doubting Thomas.

The message is clear. Life isn't perfect. There is pain and dysfunction. But, we must keep the fire, our passion, alive.

The closing song has a message of hope, but it's not sugar. It's more bittersweet. The final line, I'll be alright. Isn't that the point? The Christian whose life isn't bittersweet has a very narrow worldview.

Jesus promised us that we will have trouble in this world. We will be faced with situations that will challenge our faith and our morals. What we must never do is stop fighting. I see this album as a rallying cry for people of my generation who are struggling as we try to figure out marriage, friendships, jobs, kids and live in general.

We will make mistakes. We will hurt others and be hurt in return. But we must never stop pursuing our passion for each other, for God. Why Should The Fire Die?, and Deceiver for that matter, inspire me more at this point in my life than most albums marketed to Christians I've listened to lately.

Greg

I couldn't have said it better myself. Bravo and God bless.

[honortheking]

a thing that i am learning though... is that you've gotta be wary of Christian music these days.

and i am completely OVER this liberal christian mindset of weell, they don't look like a Christian, or act like a Christian, BUT YOU CAN'T SAY THEY'RE NOT CHRISTIANS! BULL CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!

Jesus said specifically that you will know each other , by our love for one another and by our fruit. non-believers will know us and either give glory to God or hate us and want us dead.

SO, with that said, i am so very frightened these days of the vast amount of christian bands that write these one-dimensional christian songs and get popular because they sound just like creed, or some psuedo-hardcore-ish band. i just feel like the majority of so-called-Christian music is crap and false. there's some good in it somewhere, but you've gotta sift.

there are so many people that claim to know Christ but on the day of Judgment Christ will say depart from me i never knew you . that's scary. and those will be professing christians who think they've got it all figured out.

how many dudes in nashville are paid to write these christian songs that we hear because they've grown up in the Bible belt and know the christian lingo? there's not much heart in most christian music.

for a better criticism of Christian music, listen and read what Derek Webb has to say. he played guitar and was one of the lead singers of a very popular Christian band called Caedmon's Call. he's amazing and has very good insight. enough of my ignorant speech.

good day to you all!

Remain in Him

[thebiglargeness]

Originally posted by honortheking
a thing that i am learning though... is that you've gotta be wary of Christian music these days.

and i am completely OVER this liberal christian mindset of weell, they don't look like a Christian, or act like a Christian, BUT YOU CAN'T SAY THEY'RE NOT CHRISTIANS! BULL CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!

Jesus said specifically that you will know each other , by our love for one another and by our fruit. non-believers will know us and either give glory to God or hate us and want us dead.

SO, with that said, i am so very frightened these days of the vast amount of christian bands that write these one-dimensional christian songs and get popular because they sound just like creed, or some psuedo-hardcore-ish band. i just feel like the majority of so-called-Christian music is crap and false. there's some good in it somewhere, but you've gotta sift.

there are so many people that claim to know Christ but on the day of Judgment Christ will say depart from me i never knew you . that's scary. and those will be professing christians who think they've got it all figured out.

how many dudes in nashville are paid to write these christian songs that we hear because they've grown up in the Bible belt and know the christian lingo? there's not much heart in most christian music.

for a better criticism of Christian music, listen and read what Derek Webb has to say. he played guitar and was one of the lead singers of a very popular Christian band called Caedmon's Call. he's amazing and has very good insight. enough of my ignorant speech.

good day to you all!

Remain in Him


*claps*
you are awesome

[Red Zep]

Originally posted by honortheking
a thing that i am learning though... is that you've gotta be wary of Christian music these days.

and i am completely OVER this liberal christian mindset of weell, they don't look like a Christian, or act like a Christian, BUT YOU CAN'T SAY THEY'RE NOT CHRISTIANS! BULL CRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP!

Jesus said specifically that you will know each other , by our love for one another and by our fruit. non-believers will know us and either give glory to God or hate us and want us dead.

SO, with that said, i am so very frightened these days of the vast amount of christian bands that write these one-dimensional christian songs and get popular because they sound just like creed, or some psuedo-hardcore-ish band. i just feel like the majority of so-called-Christian music is crap and false. there's some good in it somewhere, but you've gotta sift.

there are so many people that claim to know Christ but on the day of Judgment Christ will say depart from me i never knew you . that's scary. and those will be professing christians who think they've got it all figured out.

how many dudes in nashville are paid to write these christian songs that we hear because they've grown up in the Bible belt and know the christian lingo? there's not much heart in most christian music.

for a better criticism of Christian music, listen and read what Derek Webb has to say. he played guitar and was one of the lead singers of a very popular Christian band called Caedmon's Call. he's amazing and has very good insight. enough of my ignorant speech.

good day to you all!

Remain in Him

It's because half the ''Christians'' are just people who claim they are Christian, but in fact are not... and frankly I don't see why someone would be afraid to say that they aren't a Christian. With that said.... I am not a Christian.