what IS music?

[NCFan4Ever]

Do you guys think that rap, boy band music, etc. is really music? I was thinking about that today and just wondered what everyone else thought.

[Jason13]

I think it depends

For the most part I don't think rap is music hardly unless its like sung rap, then I would consider it music. As far as boy bands go, I think it is music and most of them are talented singers, but the songs are always so corny, it is hard to take them seriously. I think it is hard to determine what is actually music because music has always evolved over time into other forms of music, so even thought some isn't good music, its still music... If that makes any sense, this is only my oppinion though

[Chip]

OK, at the risk of damaging my credibility, I will go on record as saying that I believe that 'NSync and 98 degrees, at least, are extremely talented, committed musician/performers.

I agree that much of the boy band music that is released is pretty formulaic and/or trite, but I've also heard some incredible (mostly unreleased) acapella numbers by both of these bands, including live performances that haven't been subjected to studio pitch correction and such, that convince me that they are unusually talented performers.

Additionally, a good friend of mine is a lighting designer for a number of major artists. He toured with 'NSync for quite a while (he's out with Britney at the moment) and I asked him some time ago about this particular issue. Apparently, the 'NSync members are quite involved with the production details of their show... they work hard and make a lot of the decisions about presentation, so (for 'NSync at least) they're definitely not quite the industry machine that some have portrayed them as being.

I think that there's a lot of commoditization in the music business, but often times, the artists who are being sold as a commodity are, actually, talented and hardworking musicians. Unless the artist is lucky enough to have artistic control (Toad the Wet Sprocket was able to win this from Sony before signing with them, but it's rare) then it's quite possible for the company to dictate not only the songs, but the way they're arranged and produced, how the band itself is marketed, and many other things.

It's actually going to get worse, because now record companies are trying to become personal managers for artists as well... a very, very bad idea with such outrageous conflicts of interest that I'm hoping it will get shot down before it goes too far... but it's hard to say with all of the consolidation and control going on in the industry.

Anyway, sorry this turned into a rant, but while there are exceptions to every rule, I think that most of the folks that work hard enough to get signed to a label are talented, hardworking musicians who deserve the success they've achieved.

[mandoBob]

well said chip.
I categorize comoditized acts as performers before artists
just my .02

[sarah]

i think nsync can sing well so i give them credit for that but they can't write music. and the lyrics they have (not just nsync but other boy bands) are stupid and mean nothing. some singers like michelle branch, britney spears, vanessa carlton, pink, ect. can't even sing! i like bands who can write music, play instruments, and sing. that's just my opinion and i'm sorry if i offended anyone if you like any of those people i named.

[kokomo88]

ditto, and they aren't really role models as far as morals go....Nsync get's up on stage in front of billions of little girls, and grab their crotches...Britney gets up there and she flaunts herself like there's no tomorrow....and she can't sing....I consider it real music when it's sung by people who are dedicated and can really contribute to what they do....not with their bodies either.....

[Taipan]

Uh....hold up there a sec, 1) Michelle Branch wrote or co-wrote EVERY song on her album (which, I may add, NC didn't) and she never flaunts herself or dresses down like Britney does. 2) Vanessa Carlton is the same, and, whilst being a bloke I personally think those two are setting a good example. 3) Vanessa Carlton plays piano 4) Michelle Branch plays guitar and keyboards, and, although I acknowledge this is a matter of personal taste, they can both sing pretty well. I'm not trying to be argumentative, or cause any offence (btw, I'M not offended, I'm just making a point) ...so, sorry, but that's just my opinion.

[Sarah9230]

:o I must say I never really heard music until I hear Nickel Creek. Nsync all went out and partied when the heard the first music they ever wrote was on the air. I give a lot of credit to those who can write and create their own songs! Of course we are all favorable to nickel creek :rolleyes: but thats ok. They are extremly talented but those who are just comming up in the 'pop' world are writing their own music and play instruments. That puts them in a whole other catagory aside from pink, brittany, and the others. They have to take clothes off or be outstandingly perverted and done up to draw crowds the others just have to play their OWN music and draw bigger crowds than them. Those of us who dont give into the deeper part of the superficial pop thing truly appreciate the talent of our groups and make up the huge population of their fan base. Shallow pop stars draw shallow fans.

Now that I have heard nickel creek I am spoiled. I cant really or want to listen to anything else unless it is somewhat related to NC. :) What can I say..... I'm not shallow. I guess thats a good thing huh? Now that I have heard GOOD [noise] I think I'm going to be stuck here for awhile. And I'm content with that.

[NCFan4Ever]

Well I personally have to say that I don't like Michelle Branch, Vanessa Carlton, Pink, Britney, or any of those other girl singers. And you wanna know why? because EVERY SINGLE TIME they release a song, I can't turn on the radio without hearing it! I am SO sick of hearing you're everywhere to me, and when I close my eyes it's you I see, and when I.... or You know I'd walk a thousand miles if I could just see you or Don't let me get me....I'm my own worst enemy... or i'm not a girl, not yet a woman...all I need is time, a moment that is mine, while I'm in between.... or....well you all get the point. Sometimes I hate the radio for spoiling what could be artists that I might like by playing their songs in a continuos loop 24/7!

[NCFan4Ever]

oh and I agree with you 110% Sarah9230 !

NICKEL CREEK ROCKS!!!

[Sarah9230]

I agree w/ you too about the 24/7 air play on the crap we get tired of listening to. I could walk right up to those people and tell them that they need to go to a nickle creek show and then tell me if they still think that they are good?! Ha I'm already promoting NC! hee hee

[Chip]

OK, total devil's advocate position here:

The song that I'm personally most taken with off of This Side at the moment is Speak It's incredibly upbeat, radio friendly, has excellent, somewhat popish production, and I frankly think it has more potential than This Side for major airplay.

So what happens if, by some miracle, Speak becomes a crossover Top 10 hit on rock radio? It means you'll turn on the radio and hear it probably once per hour.

Now, of course, I know that, from our vantage point anyway, NC is much more talented and has better music than a Britney or Pink or whomever, but the reality is that the music industry's marketing machine basically plays Top 20 into the ground, to the objection of practically everyone (artist, fan, radio listener).

So would you be as sick of NC playing 24/7?

I think I know the answer, but just figured that putting out that possibility would raise some interesting discussion....

[NCFan4Ever]

No, I wouldn't be as sick of Nickel Creek if they got played on the radio all the time. But that is because I would have seen Nickel Creek go from a hardly-known little cowpoke band to a huge success (commercially--they are, of course, already an incredible success music-wise.) I have met Nickel Creek and seen what awesome people they are. But I haven't had any of that experience with most of the other huge artists out there. And I'm sure that they have some die-hard fans too, that would never get sick of them....but I sure do!

[Taipan]

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree I gues, returning to the original question though, in essence, music is art. now, we all know that nowadays an unmade bed is classed as award-winning art, so I guess music can be almost anything too. I personally would say that music should have melody to actually be music.

[NCFan4Ever]

I think that to classify someone as a true musician, they should have to either write their own songs or play their own instruments. I don't really consider music made by a synthesizer and a drum machine as true music.

[Chip]

Hmmmm.

So someone who has an incredible voice but happens to primarily sing other people's songs (Billie Holliday comes to mind) isn't a musician?

Or someone like Futureman from the Flecktones isn't a musician because he happens to play a midi-driven drum machine instead of real drums?

Somehow, I'm having difficulty grasping the generalization that people are trying to make.

[NCFan4Ever]

Of course there are exceptions to every generalization.

But, for instance, I dont consider Britney a musician. All of her songs are written for her by other people. all (or at least most) of her music is produced in a studio by a computer. I think that Britney is a preformer, not a musician.

Or most rap music......the background music is made by computers. Although most rap artists do write their own lyrics, I don't consider it music. there are no actual musical instruments played, and there is no actual music, just talking.

Now, don't get me wrong....I've been known to download a Britney song or two and I own countless rap albums. But I don't consider either of those types of songs as true music.

[matt the fiddler]

one thign to think about- classical music [where most of the evolution in western music has taken place in] is mainly made of performers, not too many composers or improvisors- there are jsut differet types of musicanship but all musicians-
matt

[Cherub1032]

What a great discusion! Might as well get my two cents out there as well...

As for the musician/performer debate, I get in this regularly with people I work with. I work at a record store so this is often a hot topic both among employees and customers. I think that many artists in today's world walk a fine line. I wouldn't call myself an N'Sync fan, but you gotta give them props for what they do, as Chip pointed out, often artists like them are more involved that it may appear. The commercial appeal, pop cultural icon status, artist image and sell, sell, sell atitudes that the label sometimes force with acts like Britney Spears, the Backstreet Boys and even past acts like NKOTB sometimes overshadow the work that they put into their albums and live shows. When the artists allow that status and image to become the bigger issue there are some questions though I think. At that point is it difficult to respect them as true musicians? I think so. Hate to keep picking on Miss Spears, but she is now and like t or not, there will be someone else in five or so years. In her case all the endorsements, sometimes shocking and lewd performances on network and cable TV, hyped up film cameos (Austin Power's Goldmember), Rolling Stone covers that make the 6 o'clock news, etc. make me more leary to put down my hard earned cash for one of her albums. The record company says I'm buying the latest Britney album with the hot new songs, but really I feel like I'm being suckered into buying yet another piece of the Britney pie, even though I've already consumed so much that I am about to bust. Does that analogy even make sense? Is it wrong? Not neccesarily, if I had her seemingly flawless body, some semblance of a voice, and her ability to entertain and entrance people I'd be all over the opportunity. That kid is set for life. There are certainly exceptions. Ozzy Osbourne has had an incredible career as a rock musician. His most recent forray with MTV has put him at the top of the pop culture pile. Seems every magazine, billboard, and What did you watch last night? conversation turns up Ozzy. Does this take away from the music he has been making the last twenty plus years? I don't think so. It really is such a fine line and really boils down to personal opinion, taste, and media perception.

What is music? Mr. Webster has a couple of things to say about that: (OMG, did I just get the dictionary out?!?)
1) The science or art of combining tones into a composition having structure and continuity; also: vocal or instrumental sounds having rhythm, melody or harmony.
2) An agreeable sound.

Well said I think, but that last one is totally a personal thing isn't it? How fortunate we are to have every option under the sun when deciding what to listen to. Agreeable or not, how cool is it to be able to listen and develop our own tastes and opinions in music?

Didn't mean to get so lengthy or preachy (passionate much?) but the longer I type the more I get to listen to my new Dolly album and avoid my homework.

Keep listening! [noise]

[dorm cripple]

in decideing which people in the music world are mucisians and which are just performers, there is a fine line. I don't claim to know where to draw it, but I would like to come to the defense of rap artistis. I would consider many of them true musicians. I don't even like rap much, but just because the backrounds are produced by computer doesn't take anything away from the art form. those songs still have to be created and refined; just because it is being controled by a click of the mouse instead of the pick of a guitar makes little difference.
Jessi

[NCFan4Ever]

Im not saying that rap singers are not artists. I'm saying that they are not musicians. I think there is definately a difference between an artist and a musician, just as there is a difference between a musician and a preformer.

[Sarah9230]

Not to put my foot in my mouth or anything but, I personally agree w/ the majority of the board. Well as far as the performer/musician/artist quarrel goes....

We have our groups.... rap....pop....country....rock.... punk rock (grunge,alternative,ect) blah blah blah Our opinions cant even begin to catagorize these groups :rolleyes:

Those who spend most of their time dancing a lil jig half naked or grabbing them selves on stage instead of singing make up the majority of the 'now' generation.

Now if you have these that actually sit down and play instruments and sing at the same time are more than likely going to be strongly disliked by the group above. And then there are those who love this group and dislike the group above. Hence the differ of opinons... :D

The artist group (in my opinon) consists of : rap (white/black) and some alternative groups

Performers are: Most All pop artists and some other aternative groups

Musicians are: (our beloved) Nickel Creek, (special pop/alternative groups) like michelle branch and others who play instruments

Exceptions: your opinion... ( and special cases... um.... your other favortie band) [evil eye] There's always and exception lol

Your an artist if you can remake someone elses song or use back ground music. Your a performer if you rely soley on your dance moves and physical apperance. Your a musician if you can perform be and artist and a musician all at the same time. If your talented enough to do all the above.... then I will buy your CD. [noise] These people are not concerned w/ that ever-present line that so finely divides music today. While others are trying to balance on that line everyday, these others are only concerned w/ their music and potentially growing fan base. I mean not everyone in the music business can be as sweet, nice, and friendly to their fans as NC (and those of you that HAVE visited w/ them can vouch for this) but some dont even try.

Ok no more lengthy discussions for me. *slap on hand* Ahh I feel better.... lol....Maybe this will bring more discussion to the topic. Hey I tried. ****NOTE***** 100% my opinion. I dont speak for everyone...but it doesnt hurt to try...[evil eye]

[NCFan4Ever]

great post sarah! i agree with everything you said!

[Taipan]

me too ;) I should just let you speak for me from now on rather than putting my foot in it!

[Sarah9230]

Its ok Taipan and thank you melanie. I guess I just have a way w/ words huh? lol I try...