B&P Offer: 3.23.02 Live Oak, FL

[Wade]

I just transferred the DAT of this fine performance this afternoon and would like to share it with y'all. I'll take up to Ten (10) folks for a blanks and postage (b&p) offer. Source info is pending, but it is a really nice AUDIENCE recording using two sets of Neumann mics from dead center. Its not the AT source, nor is it the incomplete soundboard. I should have the full source lineage soon.

Nickel Creek
March 23, 2002
Main Stage @ Springfest
Suwanne Music Park
Live Oak, FL

Source:
Transfer: Sony 59ES > Monster s/pdif > Audiophile 2496 > SoundForge 4.5 > CDWave > mkwACT > shn

01 Intro
02 Big Sam Thompson
03 ?
04 Reasons Why
05 House of Tom Bombadil
06 Green & Gray
07 Think About Your Troubles
08 Ferdinand the Bull
09 When You Come Back Down
10 The Matrix Song
11 The Fox
12 Sweet Afton
13 ?
14 ? (encore)

Respond to this message with your interest and your email, and I'll send you the mailing address.

Wade

[Mostlydead]

sign me up.

curbyourenthusiasm@hotmail.com

[ScarletAnneGray]

I want it!!

ScarletAnneGray@aol.com

[NCFreak]

This makes me #3!!

jbholzhey@yahoo.com

[jdostert]

I'll jump at the chance!

jdostert@mail.com

[lizbeth_marie]

I'd love to as well!

lizbeth_marie@yahoo.com

[Sharon]

Me, too...please put me down! :D

[Nick]

nprindle@loyola.edu

:)

[Chip]

Um, er, ah....

At the moment, the draft of Nickel Creek's taping policy doesn't permit tape trees or mass distribution of live recordings (only one-to-one trades), so this thread is in one of those gray areas that may not be in keeping with the wishes of the band's management.

We've been taking a really low key approach to trading until the final policy is in place. I realize that the intent isn't to do anything wrong, but it would be cool if folks could be low key and just do person-to-person trades rather than bulk B&P trades until things are clear, which should be in the next week or two.

Thanks!!

Chip

[Wade]

In response to Chip's post (above), I feel the need to offer the counterpoint. While I have not discussed, nor I have I even met, the members of Nickel Creek or their management, I DID carefully read the Unofficial Taping and Trading Policy as drafted on this website before I made my offer. Below, I've cut-n-pasted the relevant portions of that draft:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NC's management hasn't yet issued a formal trading policy (I'm planning to check in with John on that again when he gets back from Europe) but Matt and I have both discussed the issue directly with Chris. Sara and Sean several times. Here, in essence, is what they've said:

Recording of shows is OK as long as it doesn't interfere with anyone else's enjoyment of the show and as long as the theater management doesn't object.

Physical trading of shows (i.e., an exchange CDs or cassettes between fans via mail or in-person trade) is OK.

Any form of electronic exchange or distribution of shows or recordings (i.e., MP3s, .SHNs, .WAVs that are downloaded or made available for download, or shared on KaZaa or gnutella or whatever) is not OK.

Trading or downloading of released recordings (i.e., copying CDs for friends) is not OK.

Distribution trees (the distribution of dozens of copies through trees and branches) are frowned upon, and might be an outright no-no.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Following this initial post is a lengthy discussion regarding clarification of a number of issues, namely whether it is OK to make b&p (blanks and postage) offers to others. From what I read, b&p offers were OK.

My offer is not, nor was it intended to be a Distribution Tree. I should know the difference. I've been taping bands (with their permission and with their encouragement) for over a dozen years now, and I've also personally created and administered the so-called Distribution Trees for mass duplication. As the Draft of NC's taping policy above points out they frown upon these type trees where dozens of copies are distributed. Now, while I perosnallty doubt that the musicians in the band have a clue as to what or how a digital distribution tree really works, that's none of my concern. Point is, I am not setting up a tree, nor am I distributing dozens of copies -- just 10.

I am extremely aware of and grateful for the musicians who allow us, as fans, to go through the trouble and personal expense of taping their live performances. I am also aware of those wrongdoers who would attempt to profit off of these musicians' generosity by selling live recordings. I can assure everyone reading this, that the good apples FAR outnumber the bad, and the taping community is itself a self-policing unit that does not stand for bootlegging on eBay or otherwise.

Lastly, and I doubt I'm alone here, if it weren't for a friend sending me a 1 disc show a couple of years ago, I doubt I would have even checked this band out - much less bought all of their studio recordings and side projects. Let's just say I don't watch CMT regularly. In a very real way, live discs (if authorized by the band in advance) become a calling card of sorts. Touring bands such as Nickel Creek derive a great deal of their income by playing live. The more people that get turned on to them, the more peple that come to the shows. The more people that come to the shows, the bigger the venues and the more albums they sell. The bigger venues and more albums, all means more profit for the band.

I apologize for any misspellings, and I only intend to voice my opinion in theis gray area. I sincerely hope that they do not issue a taping/trading policy that was drafted by the record company -- those people ONLY care about the bottom line, and they don't like tapers.

Wade

[MandoFan]

Wade-
I am very interested in listening to this show.
If you are interested in making a trade instead of a B&P, please let me know. I have a large list of bluegrass cd's, but as of yet, no NC. If not, I would like to join your B&P list.
Thanks-
Sam
groovin618@aol.com

[prinny]

I too would like to do B&P.
jorcojenn@hotmail.com

Thanks,
Jenn

[Sharon]

Wade, your interpretation of the unofficial taping and trading policy makes perfect sense to me. This is exactly the way I would interpret that information myself. Personally, I don't see anything the least bit inappropriate about this offer, and I would like to reiterate my interest in participating.

Furthermore, I would like to make some comments of my own about the taping and trading issue. I have only been a Nickel Creek fan for a few months, and I have to say that it's been a very frustrating experience so far. When I get as excited about a band as I have gotten about Nickel Creek, the first thing I want to do is collect all the material I can get on them. As we all know, the amount of NC material that is commercially available at this point is extremely limited. That means the only way fans like me can slake our thirst for more NC is through the generosity of other fans like Wade. But it seems like every time this kind of thing gets brought up on this board, we get a finger shaken in our faces and are told that we are being naughty little girls and boys to even mention it. I cannot begin to express how frustrating that is to someone like me who is new to this band and dying to catch up on some of what I have missed! [bang]

As a loyal fan, I have absolutely NO desire whatsoever to do anything that would harm Nickel Creek in any way or negatively impact on their income from their product. To me that is the whole point of having a taping and trading policy, and if that is the intent behind the unofficial taping and trading policy that's been posted on this site as well as the official one that is currently being hammered out, I wholeheartedly support that. But I fail to see how Wade's sharing the tapes he offered in this thread (or someone sharing a copies of a TV appearance as some of us inquired about in another thread) could possibly have ANY negative impact on the band, economic or otherwise. I understand that in cautioning us about this the moderators are trying to protect the band's interests, and that is a highly laudable goal. I recognize the need to exercise some judgment and restraint about how we approach things like taping and trading. But I have a hard time understanding why such an EXTREME degree of caution is felt to be necessary. :confused:

I sincerely hope that the complete official policy will be available very soon as Chip has said it should be, so that we will all know EXACTLY what's allowed and what isn't. And I devoutly hope that this policy will based on common sense rather than record company paranoia regarding imaginary threats to its bottom line.

I am very sorry if this post has offended anyone, and I apologize if it has. As a relatively new member of this community, I'm just very frustrated right now, as well as incredibly tired of being made to feel guilty for talking about things that are considered perfectly normal and acceptable in other fan communities. [guilty]

[Wade]

Well, after composing my post this morning over two cups of coffee, and then hopping in the car for a fun-filled day of being a travelling defense attorney, I had some time to think about these things. I still hold to my earlier interpretation of the trading policy and even moreso to my belief that the band is being led astray by corporate types who only see loss of THEIR profits as the inevitable outcome.

One thing that occurred to me, and I do not mention it as a negative by any menas, but isn't Allison Krauss HEAVILY affiliated with Nickel Creek? I mean, one listen to Sarah Watkins' voice and you can tell who she listens to. But, and please correct me if I'm wrong here, doesn't or didn't Allison Krauss produce their albums?

Reason for my inquiry is that Allison Krauss (and Union Station) have seemingly always been very anti-taping of their live performances.

I could only hope that some independant market study could be, or has been, done to illustrate the non-correlation between a liberal taping/trading policy and loss of profits for a band. I would wager that the reverse would be true.

Your mileage may vary.

Wade

[katiekind]

Alison is well-known as a perfectionist who spends months and months in the studio getting each note absolutely perfect, so I'd put it down to raging perfectionism before I'd assume it's a financially based decision.

This reminds me of a concert she did several months ago in North Carolina, I think, where she left the stage about halfway into the evening and didn't return. Her band carried on without her. Turned out she was violently ill--got off the stage and threw up. I can't imagine performing with that kind of illness coming on. Those would be the times when you'd be *more* than glad you had a no-taping policy.

[Wade]

Point well taken and understood, katiekind. I was not pigeonholing Ms. Kraus in the record label paranoia. Merely, I was just pointing out that she is and has been very influential in the success and future of Nickel Creek. Perfectionsism can wear off.

I am a huge Krauss fan, make no mistake. I was simply offerring a theory as to what may guide/shape the Nickel Creek taping/trading policy when it takes form.

By the way ... the b&p offer is now closed.

But, since this is after all a Discussion Forum, I think this debate is as healthy as it gets.

Wade

[Chip]

OK, I must say I get really annoyed with having to restate the same things over and over, particularly with the hardcore tapers who believe for whatever reason that their reasoning and logic should prevail over the wishes of the artists and their management.

Nickel Creek could very easily prohibit taping entirely, and we are extremely lucky that their management is supportive of taping... but it's folks that push the policy and violate the spirit behind it that could very easily ruin it for all of us. When one of the moderators posts a message saying This may not be OK, we are, in effect, trying to nicely say Please don't do this, it could get us in trouble. I could just as easily have removed the thread entirely, which is what I *should* have done, since we haven't permitted any other trading threads, but I was hopeful that a gentle Um, this probably isn't OK would suffice.

I was wrong.

Matt and I have spent a lot of time discussing the taping issue with the band, their management, and other members of their team, and we've seen different drafts as the policy as it's evolved. When we post something on the taping issue, it is a pretty well informed (though unofficial) opinion.

As I mentioned elsewhere, Matt and I have seen the near-final (as in, being checked for typos, mostly) taping policy. The offering of bulk B&P is a pretty clear violation of the spirit of the policy, and the posting of this thread may well result in a clarification of that policy, removing flexibility that might otherwise have been there.

Also, while no one who posts on this forum can speak for the band, I can tell you that based on the conversations I've had with people making the decisions, the taping policy is not being dictated by money, fear, concern over lost profits, being led astray by corporate types or anything of that nature. In fact, the current draft says that NC wants to support taping, but must also comply with contractual obligations it has with its record companies and publishers.

The band and its management realize that sharing of taped shows has helped to get the word out and increase their visibility; while I'm not aware of any studies that have been done, I am inclined to agree that trading of live shows does help increase band awareness and popularity.

But at the same time, it is absolutely wrong to infer that corporate types are doing a disservice to the band by being concerned about the business side of music.

Without their management and the rest of their business team, Nickel Creek would still be playing 80 seat rooms and be virtual unknowns, and I'm sure they'll be the first to tell you that. NC's management is ethical and very concerned about their artistic integrity (two very rare traits in this business). At the same time, management realizes that it's wise to maintain a certain level of control and limitation over the distribution of NC's music (which, I should point out, is a very valuable asset that they are simply giving away to their fans). I've spent a lot of time working in the music business, and their organization is about the farthest I've seen from focusing on profits and corporate policy... it's about making great music, building popularity through working their tails off, and having an incredible degree of talent and good timing.

Also, about the Alison Kraus thing: Would people please get off of this? Alison is a record producer. This is someone who sits in a studio and helps to shape the sounds we hear on the recording. Producers at that level have nothing to do with management, marketing, visibility, etc., and certainly nothing to do with career strategy, selling out, taping policies, or anything of that sort.

It is very easy for people to find fault or yell corporate because Nickel Creek is becoming popular among a wide audience, but the God's honest truth is that NC's popularity is due to their talent, songwriting, and some good advice, not because they've gone corporate.




Chip

[Chip]

Sharon:

Sorry that you're feeling that anyone is saying that trading, within what we know the guidelines to be at present, is in any way not OK.

Although it is a pretty large community resource, Nickelcreek.info is a private forum that can establish policies for what is and isn't appropriate to discuss. About 98% of our policies are based on what the band members or management have asked us to honor, and we take that responsibility seriously, because we respect the band and what they stand for. (The other 2% are housekeeping issues, like no flaming, that don't concern the band.)

As to taping, we do our best to conform to the policies that NC's management has set, to the extent we know them. We do our best to ensure that our community members also conform, at least while they're participating here.

Yes, we're being low key on discussion of trades here on the boards, because that issue hasn't been decided yet. If management gives its approval, we will probably start a trading discussion section, but I also have to say that having to constantly argue with hardcore traders that think they know better than the band's management is not something that Matt or I look forward to, and this sort of thing tends to discourage us from wanting to offer that resource. But if people can agree to adhere to the policy as issued, rather than argue whether or not it's reasonable or is based on corporate fear or whatever, then it will probably happen.

Meantime, if you want to contact somebody that has a show and arrange a B&P with them, I can't imagine anyone will complain. It's somebody offering to make 10 or 20 copies to whomever wants them that, from what I know at this point, appears to go against the one friend trading to one friend they know intent of the policy.

[kokomo88]

is it ok if I'm confused?

[BoFrazer]

I'm following this thread with great interest, because I collect NC shows (and some other killer Chris Thile performances), and I would gladly fork over money for them if I had to. But they are free, and I pass them on in the same spirit. And nobody is injured. Furthermore, I would bet that 90% of my recipients, like myself, have already purchased every legitimate audio available, including the solo projects.

As much as I may have formerly been a militant / radical / hippie / in-your-face kind of 60's dude, I have grown older and hopefully wiser, certainly mellower, and I'm realizing what this is all boiling down to. Our kindly moderators' point is quite simple: let's not use this forum for trading, because we don't want to annoy NC or their $ mamagement team. We're all having fun here; let's not spoil it by getting too rowdy about it. And the point of view of the traders is: wow, what a splendid place to reach the biggest fanbase and share our wealth. How can we resist announcing what brings us such joy, to the very folks who would appreciate it most?

Well, IMHO the simple answer is: don't talk about it here. Go to ETREE.ORG and look up the available shows, then email the potential source. It's worked quite well for me for years. Let's not wave the flag in front of the bull (Ferdinand?) when we have so many other options. I had to search out the whole SHN thing myself, and I think if a fan is interested enough, they will find ETREE soon enough. Then I discovered the Shady-Grove mailing list...

Does that make sense? Let's just... be cool. EVERYbody is correct, but we on the fringe need to hold our cards close.

just another $.02

ps - having said all that, check out my list at http://db.etree.org/BoFrazer

[Wade]

Good point BoFrazer. Shady-grove indeed.

hard-core taper,

Wade

[Sharon]

Thank you for the information about etree, Bo. I never heard of it before. I will go check it out soon. What is the Shady Grove mailing list, though...could you please enlighten me about that?

I'll tell you the thing that has confused me the most: I gathered that it was okay to trade one-to-one, but that posting about it here was frowned on (for reasons I have been been very confused about but understand slightly better now). It's very confusing to be told it's okay to do this, but not okay to talk about it. Especially when you don't have a clue how to find people to trade with any other way. This is where a LOT of my frustration has been coming from, and I'm really glad to be informed me of a way to do this.

I wish people would realize that we don't all come in to this fan community fully informed of things like this. Posting this kind of information is much more helpful than merely posting admonitions not to talk about trading here...this lets me know there are some alternatives, some way to solve my problem, and helps relieve my frustration instead of just adding to it. Thanks again.

I feel like I have made a whole bunch of faux pas this week regarding the trading issue, and I almost wish I could resign from the list and sign back on with a different screen name so nobody would know I'm the same person, lol. Now that I know how to find out who I can trade with OFF this board, I will keep my mouth shut here until I hear there's an actual policy. ;) Thank you and good day.

[matt the fiddler]

sorry about the confusin- we thought that we were gogin to have the recording policy a LONG time ago [6 months ago at least] and when we decided to hold off on the forum [which we were working with some of their managment then]... we thought it was going to be short term- and this forum was pretty small back then....... and since then there are a lot of new peopel on the forum- that missed all the discussions we had a while ago... it has gotten confusing.... i apologize for the inconvience..

the policy is almost out though-.... hopefully there will be a tapers/ traders section here at the site once it is released...

[buschag]

Hey everyone.....my first post. I know this is maybe a bad time to ask this but it has to do with what you are all talking about. I would like to know if there is anything I can do to get one show so I could start sharing. I need to start somewhere yet I dont know where. Can anyone help me? THANKS

[Jason13]

I don't want to get in the middle of all this but I have been dying to get a chance to get a B&P. I have supported NC by buying both there major studio albums, and Chris's latest solo CD and Sean's solo CD. Also ordered the Lighthouses Tale Enhanced CD. I would love to add a live show to my collection. I have not yet been lucky enough to see NC in person, mostly due to the fact they have never played anywhere close to where I live, closest they have been was Kansas City (3 hour drive)... but that show was on my first day back to school, and will bee in Minneapolis (4 hour drive) on a day I have semester tests :( So due to the fact I have been unlucky with there scheduling I would love the opertunity for one of these B&P's. So is it alright for him to do this or not? I am confused[think har

[Jason13]

Hmm, I didn't notice the dates that most these posts were, thought it was a new topic :rolleyes: obviously this guy isn't around anymore so forget my post above...

[matt the fiddler]

if you contact indivually, you can b and p- it is more the mass trees that discourage personal contact wiht people that are not wanted in the policy... [plus by not having mass ba dn p trees it helps limit the sprad of the music.... and allows creek still to have a little control]

matt